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We’re gonna be talking with my friend Rhonda Farr for this interview. She’s amazing and I can’t wait for you to hear it.

Amanda: Welcome, Rhonda. 

Rhonda Farr: Thank you for having me. Nice to be here. 

Amanda: Why don’t you introduce yourself for my audience? 

Rhonda: Perfect. So, I am Rhonda. I have been in the coaching world since about 2017 and transitioned from the family counseling world, which was unique. I worked with families who have been touched by addiction, so a little bit of a shift.

And when I started coaching, I started coaching around the topic of intimacy with very conservative couples, much like you. I eventually realized that a lot of intimacy, especially physical intimacy issues were related to emotional intimacy. So I’m guessing that you have noticed that correlation as well.

Amanda: Yes . 

Rhonda: Yeah. It’s hard to miss, and for me, I really loved the emotional connection side. It just lit me up and spoke to me, so I just dove right in and learned everything I could about emotional connection. And I have landed in the space kind of between emotional and physical intimacy with a group of people, high achievers, who are often married to people who are like peacekeepers, people who are a little bit more reserved and quiet. And what I see is this dynamic between couples and partners like this, which one person is super driven. Go, go, go. Get it done, get it done. And the other partner feels like it’s their job to just keep the peace, not have much of an opinion. Kind of be quiet and let the other person really excel, which sounds like a perfect match, right?  Yin and yang. 

Amanda: Yes. Yes. But we both know that this dynamic causes a lot of problems. . 

Rhonda: Yes. It usually causes pain for both partners, not feeling chosen, not feeling heard, not feeling valued. So, yeah, that’s what I do these days. 

Amanda: And that’s exactly what we’re gonna be talking about is this dynamic with the overachiever and the one who just wants everything to be hunky dory.

Rhonda: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Let’s do it.

Amanda:  Okay. So why don’t you talk to me a little bit about this overachieving husband. Usually we’re saying the husband, but it could be the wife too, right? But the typical dynamic that you see and that you work with is this overachieving husband. 

Rhonda: Totally. And I want to be clear with what you said. You’re so right. It could be the opposite actually. In my marriage, I wouldn’t say I’m the high achiever per se, as my husband has historically earned more money than myself, but my motivation, my drive, is more like:  See a problem. Let’s just bulldoze through that and fix it. Let’s just get it done, right?

Amanda: Yes.

Rhonda: And he’s more like, Okay, I’ll just sit quietly over here while you do that, right?  Meanwhile, I get resentful that he’s not more engaged. Meanwhile, he feels resentful that he doesn’t have as much of a voice and doesn’t feel heard. And so it goes, but typically it’s a husband who is in my part. .

Amanda: Well, I think we are very much alike, although my husband, we actually balance each other really well and we tend to flip flop these roles quite a bit. Because I think a lot of couples do too. Like it’s not just one always. But what we’re gonna be talking today is the stereotype of like over-functioner, under-functioner and how this contributes to problems in the marriage and especially in the sexual relationship. 

Rhonda: Totally. Is it okay if we start by just a little review about our primal survival brain?

Amanda: Absolutely. I think that helps. 

Rhonda: That will set this stage for the rest of our conversation, I think. So here’s what happens. Our primal brain is always trying to find out its value in the tribe, right? Like, we’re afraid of getting kicked out because we’re not good enough or somebody else is better.

That’s why there’s so much comparison. That’s why there’s so much like, Let me earn more, Let me do more, that way I’ll feel more safety and security in this tribe. And when we think about that culturally or religiously in our religious groups, or even in our families of origin, we can really start to see why we get into some behaviors that were very adaptive for a time. That then become maladaptive as we become adults or in a marriage, right? 

Amanda: Yes. And I think even going back to that, the reason why our primal brain does this is because back in those caveman days, we had to fit into the tribe in order to survive. Like if we were out on our own, we would die. And so we had to exist within that tribe. And our brain continues that same pattern of thinking well into today, even though it’s not as necessary. 

Rhonda: So true. Like back then it was physically necessary, right? Like, ah, we have to be in this tribe to be safe from the tigers and the famines, and the other tribes going to war. Now it’s more like we’ve evolved to the place where it’s like emotional safety. 

Rejection feels like a threat, or just feeling like we are pretty enough for the women, right? Or that we’re subservient enough. Like when you feel like we don’t fit in the tribes sometimes because we’re too overt, right? 

Amanda: Yes, yes, yes. So I think that knowing that and understanding that it was very adaptive, but it becomes maladaptive in our relationships.

Rhonda: Totally. And it even sometimes is very adaptive in our families of origin. Like a lot of my clients will say, Well it really worked for me to be an overachiever, because then I got all this external validation from my parents and it made them super happy. So as children, it keeps us feeling ‘secure’ in a role. 

Amanda: Yes. Or being the opposite. Like I need to just keep the peace and make sure that I’m quiet and I’m not causing a problem. Because if I do then it causes problems with my parents. Like it’s all these attachment theories and stuff that we know as coaches and we don’t just really dig into too much with our clients, but we really get that like this is how that dynamic was created in our origin families so that we could be loved and be safe within those families, and then we carry that into the marital relationship and, Whew. Lots of fun.

Rhonda:  Totally. That was my experience. I’ll just speak to that for just a second because you explained it so well, but, so I came from a family where we were a little bit more vocal and I have only brothers and I was the youngest. So safety and security for me meant learning to speak up and owning things and really speaking out. My husband, however, grew up in a family where his value felt more secure. When he was quieter, when he didn’t voice strong opinions. When he did what he was told. And surprise. Surprise. Guess what types of personalities or adaptive children are attracted to each other.

Amanda: They hear each other. Yes. It’s always like, you’re not gonna get two people who are really loud and overt. You’re usually not going to get two of those or two people that are really, really quite usually get the opposites attract. Right. It’s that yin and that yang again, that polarity that we need in a marriage that is so good in so many ways, but then it causes us problems.

Rhonda: Yeah. If we’re aware of it, I’m sure you’ve heard that saying, we often marry our unfinished business. Our unemotional business. Yes. I really think that’s one of the reasons why my husband and I got married, right? It felt so familiar for me to be that person who had the stronger opinion and for him to be a little more reserved. And it felt so familiar from my end to be like, Oh yeah, this is where I get to be really bold and feel really strong and it hook line and sinker. We just fell into it. 

Amanda: Yeah. Well again, and we feel, we felt safe there. Yes. Which is why we felt safe with our partner. We wouldn’t have married them if we didn’t feel safe. So we come by this really, really honestly.

Rhonda:  Yes, Yes. And I love that you said that because one thing that I would like to start right off the bat is we’re not judging either partner here. We’re gonna say some things today that might feel like, Oh, ouch. Yikes. But we come by honest to echo what you said, and I really like to just teach my clients about the primal brain to pull away some of that self-judgment and bring in some of that compassion.as to why we repeat these cycles over and over and over. And I’ll say one more thing about that repeating of cycles, when our primal brain views some of these maladaptive behaviors as safe and secure.  And then we get some external validation. For example, if I am begging to get external validation through achieving and accomplishing, right, that feels safe to me. And then I achieve enough and somebody’s like, Oh my gosh, you’re so great. Thank you for providing this. Thank you for doing this. I get a little tiny hit that says. Well done. 

Amanda: I think you still, you just described my life . 

Rhonda: Yes. Right. Well done. You’re still safe. You’re doing great. And then it feels great and I have a little bit of relief. Ooh, I’m secure. Ooh, I’m safe. Okay. And then I’m begging for it again, like, where’s the next hit coming from? That’s safety security, right? 

Amanda: Yes. Yes. We’re both that person, we’re the female. But if we switch that to what we are typically seeing you, what you’re typically seeing in your clients, and I actually see it quite a bit in my clients as well, is that overachieving, that’s the husband. What might that look like? 

Rhonda: Okay, so glad you asked. So often the high achieving husbands are like really doing well at work. Climbing the ladder, they see a problem, they know how to fix it, and they get a lot of validation for that. You’re so valuable here. We need you on our team. Congratulations for doing that. Even in our churches sometimes, Hey, can you come in and fulfill this role or this calling? Oh my gosh, you’re so good at taking care of the congregation. Thank you for doing that. And how are you managing work and that, and like all these things and we just roll out the verbal praises and sometimes accolades at work and we can get addicted to that, right? Like this husband that’s overachieving in that way. It’s like, let me do more so I can feel that security. Somebody can tell me that I’m safe in the tribe again. And so we’re talking about a social tribe. And then we can talk about a religious tribe, right? Our faithful Christians. And then we can talk about a family of origin tribe. And then we can talk about a marital tribe. There’s all these tribes that we’re just trying to earn our security in. So yeah, it just keeps us doing. We’re often told that our value is fixed and always inherent. But really culturally, we’re socialized to believe that we earn it. Like, let’s just call that out. 

Amanda: 100%. 100%. It’s what we say, but we operate completely differently. 

Amanda: Totally. I think they get that even with like, say the young men, like they’re advancing in the priesthood and then they’re going on a mission and then they get married and then they’re, you know, they have the career. Like we’re trained, we’re socialized to believe that our value is dependent on what we achieve. 

Rhonda: Yes. So let’s bring that into a marriage relationship with a wife who might be more inclined, socialized to her and her value by being cute. By not causing waves. By taking care of the home very efficiently so it doesn’t interrupt the husband’s achieving and earning. Right? Let’s pull that into the marriage just for a moment. We are socialized as women to look really beautiful and pretty, but we’re also criticized for doing that, right? Like, oh, you’re shallow. Oh, so superficial. But we’re also socialized to do it, right? About this little, this wife who’s trying so hard and is in constant conflict with herself, trying to do that and also trying to make sure we don’t interrupt the achieving and earning over here. And I want you to just think about, now we’re going to pull those two people together in this marriage and have them have a mortgage and solve children issues and faith issues and… 

Amanda: And sexual issues.

Rhonda: Yes. Intimacy issues. Just think about that for a moment. That’s the way we’re both socialized and we’re going to pull that together and be like, Okay, now be really happy here. 

Amanda: Yeah. And even just going back to the woman who’s been socialized that way, like, we have been socialized to be desirable, but not to desire. To be beautiful and attractive and yet not sexual. And it causes so many problems. We see this so, so much. And I mean even, you know, even the men in our church have been socialized to want that as well. Like, you know, if you serve a mission then you’ll get a hot wife. Just gross.

Rhonda: So gross. I just rolled my eyes. I know they can’t see it. 

Amanda:  I know. It’s so weird. The doctrine itself is beautiful and we know these things. The culture that we have been socialized to causes so many problems and it we’re socialized cause problems within the marriage relationship causing an unequal partnership in marriage rather than an equal partnership, which of course is going to play out in so many different dynamics.

Rhonda: Totally. I think we just described where we started, like the emotional intimacy, how it’s linked to the physical intimacy and even the self intimacy, right? With how we’re viewing ourselves. Like think about the women that you work with and how they’ve been socialized how their body should look and then when their body doesn’t match that ideal, how they feel when they show up. Like intimate physical connection. How damaging is that?

Amanda: Yeah. I just had a client the other day, I posted something on Instagram about cuddling naked, and like, it was just a repost of, I think something from covenant therapy and she messaged me. She’s like, That is so hard because when I’m cuddling naked, he can see everything sag. And I said, Your body is so beautiful. Stop thinking that it needs to be tight and perky and like we’re going to change. Like it’s just what we’ve been socialized to believe, which makes me so sad. 

Rhonda: Men and women, right?  Men are also socialized to think women should look a certain way to be attractive. Yeah, and I have a client right now who hates that about himself, and he’s just like, Can you please just make this go away? I don’t want to have this ideal. That should be equal to attractiveness. But because he’s been socialized for 40 years he’s really having trouble unwinding it. And by the way, he’s an achiever, right? So why don’t we just work harder? Why don’t we eat differently?  Why don’t we lose the weight? Right? And he’s like, the way my brain thinks about it, of course his wife is over here, thinking, Okay. Whatever you think I should do. Like if that’ll make you happy. And then she tries and oh, by the way, he’s still not happy. Right? 

Amanda: Oh, so you just described my first marriage.

Rhonda: So we’re talking about this primal brain, this need to fit into the tribe, and then how it’s totally messing up our intimate, physical and emotional connection. 

Amanda: Yeah. You see it everywhere all the time. And it’s not right or wrong for either partner, Like both partners are suffering from this dynamic?

Rhonda: Yes. Can we talk about that just a little bit though, how they’re suffering? 

Amanda: Yes. Let’s talk about how they’re suffering in this dynamic. 

Rhonda: So here’s the thing about these achievers. They feel like they can earn everything and they can just make it happen. But you can never force somebody to want or desire you, like by definition of force and wanting and desiring, like nobody will ever choose you when you’re forcing them to, and it feels terrible to them. It’s like, this is the one thing I can’t fix. It’s almost like they think their partner is like dead weight. I can do everything else except for fix them. Because the same solutions that work in a career or solving a different issue will never work with another human. Right. And it’s so confusing because it’s like this tactic or this strategy to just put my head down and bulldoze through and solve works almost everywhere else. Why won’t it be that way or the case in the marriage? Right. It’s so confusing. So they keep trying, which then pushes the partner further away. 

Amanda: Yeah. Well, and they think, I’m so great in all these other areas, why are you not desiring me? And it’s that constant validation seeking that makes their partner not want them even more.

Rhonda: It’s like everybody else thinks I’m great. Why can’t you desire me? Why can’t you value me? And then they feel terrible. Meanwhile, let’s go to the other partner, often the wife. She feels like she can never truly state her own opinions. She can never truly be heard, right? She is mapping in him that she’s a constant disappointment that she never measures up to his high achieving ways, high achieving standards, and so it feels ‘safer’ in this marital tribe to just push all that under. Well, guess what? Pushing emotions breeds resentment.

Amanda: Resentment, anxiety, depression.

Rhonda: Yes. So they feel like they can never fully be heard or known, right? So really imagine this, You’ve got this one partner who’s a little bit less overt in what they’re saying, and so they feel like they can never be themselves. Depression, anxiety, resentments, all brewing. They can’t ever really be fully seen. And then you have this partner on the other side who’s begging for it. They can’t ever feel fully chosen or desired, and they also get very frustrated sometimes. They’re like, I just want to know her. I just want her to tell me who she is. And they can map in her that she’s hiding things, right?. But the moment she starts to say it, it’s very hard for them to tolerate their own feelings, right?

Amanda: Yes. 

Rhonda: And then there goes that push and pull. Yes. Like they both get this pressurized anxiety. Yeah, it’s just like feeding each other’s wounds. 

Amanda: I know. It’s this horrible cycle that we get in. I get, you know, so many men that come to me and they’re like, Can you please just fix my wife ? 

Rhonda: Oh yes. 

Amanda: If this part was fixed, my life would be just idyllic. If she could just get fixed. I’m like, Oh, you’re contributing to the problem, my friend.. You can’t just fix her . And she’s not broken. She doesn’t need to be fixed. But then I talk to the wife, right, and help her understand what it is and like it’s really that relationship with herself where she needs to understand that she needs to be seen and heard and stand up for what she wants in the marriage. And then she starts moving into that role and he’s like, Wait, nope. This is not what I wanted. This is not what I was counting on. I just wanted better sex. I didn’t want you to take over my role. I didn’t want you to be more achieving. And not validating me in the process. That itself causes more problems. I always tell clients that it’s going to get worse before it’s going to get better. 

Rhonda: Yes, totally. It’s so fascinating how we are craving this thing, like we want intimacy. I think it’s human to crave a certain type of intimacy, to know another person and fully be known. And accept as we are. Yes. But we are scared to death to actually do it. 

Amanda: We are and that’s really normal and human too. Like we all do that. So it’s just part of the process. It’s part of the process. 

Rhonda: It’s part of the process. And I would say one of the biggest things that I see for this is because everybody’s listening to this, my guess isn’t saying, Okay, we see this, we can relate to this, but what do we do? Which by the way, is the achieving tendency, okay. Telling how to fix it. Let’s do this. 

Amanda: Yeah, I just need to hurry and fix this so that I can feel better. 

Rhonda: Right, totally. I actually told one of my clients today, he was like, If she would just fix this issue, exactly what you said, if she would just fix this issue so our sex would be better, then everything would be fine. And I said, Oh, look at your primal brain. It’s seeking for that pleasure to fix it. It’s avoiding the pain of thinking I’m gonna have to live eternally with this person who I don’t have a sexual compatibility with. And it’s trying to be very efficient in conserving your energy by saying, Oh, she should take care of that so I don’t have to exert any energy.

Amanda: Right? A hundred percent. 

Rhonda: So we’re saying, Oh, look at your cute little primal brain doing that, and if she fixed it all, that would be a disservice to you because you would never get to evolve into this higher version of yourself  to take care of your own emotional wellbeing. 

Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so funny because, you know, I get the women who do come into my program, right? And then they start seeing all these issues and they’re like, My husband needs coaching too. I’m like, He probably does. 

Rhonda: He does. He does. 

Amanda: You both do. Because that’s what both of you have to evolve because it’s not just one person, it’s a system. It’s a dynamic that you have co-created and until you can both work to grow out of this and create more intimacy and more connection. And it just, even when that happens, you’re still going to have issues.

Rhonda: Totally. A hundred percent. So, yeah, I think you’re exactly right. Which leads us back to, what do we do? I would just ask anybody who’s thinking that, Are you willing to tolerate feeling pretty uncomfortable while you learn? While you learn to let your partner have a voice, while you learn to use your own voice when your partner might not like it. Are you willing to do that? 

Amanda: That’s the key, right?

Rhonda: Yeah. Learning to tolerate that discomfort. While we break out of these cycles and knowing that when we get a little bit of validation, because it happens on that. We didn’t talk so much about that partner who’s more of a peacekeeper. But you know when the husband comes in and is like, Oh, I need more sex, or I need your body to look a different way, and she somehow manages to contort herself into what he wants. For her that’s a little bit of a relief hit too, right? Like, whew, I dodged the dangerous tiger for another time until next week or until I gained five pounds or whatever. And it’s a little bit of a validation in a twisted way for her too, to say, Whew, I avoided that discomfort. 

Amanda: Yeah, and it’s so weird to see this dynamic because then they wonder why they don’t feel safe in their own bodies. And why they don’t feel safe to be sexual. Because they continually sacrifice themselves over and over and over to fit this ideal and the mold and it’s never gonna be enough. 

Rhonda: Yeah. So they’re betraying their own wellbeing for the happiness of their partner. Or like, let me just betray myself so he won’t be mad at me. Let me just not say these words so I don’t have to deal with his retort or this fight because these high achievers, they’re often way more articulate with their mouths. They can be a little bit, what’s the word? I almost said manipulative. I don’t think it’s purposeful manipulation, but they’re, myself included, like, we’re really good at making a strong argument, and sometimes that partner’s like, it’s not worth the fight, it’s not worth the conversation. So let me do or say whatever I need to, to get them to be quiet so I can once again retreat to emotional safety. 

Amanda: Yes. And it’s, I love Brene Brown’s Atlas of the Heart where she talks about the near and the far enemies. And I bring this up a lot with my clients. So you know, what we actually want is a really loving, intimate, beautiful, passionate relationship. And we can see the far enemy of that is like selfishness, only thinking of ourselves and not thinking of our partner. And we know we don’t want to be that, but when we think we’re being loving and kind and compassionate and we’re self betraying, that’s what Brene Brown calls the Near Enemy. It’s actually not what you want, but it often appears what it is. And it actually keeps us from getting what we really want. Right. So that’s where we have to self confront. Or get a coach to help you do this, right, to see what you’re doing that’s actually keeping you from actually getting what you want.

Rhonda: Totally. I say that all the time. We want something so desperately. and our primal brain kicks in for that safety, and then we just sabotage the thing we want the most, just like the high achiever who’s like trying to force his partner or her partner to choose them, and trying to use that force and coercion, you’re actually sabotaging that connection, that choice, that desire that you want so desperately. And what you just said, you’re sabotaging internally. By abandoning yourself, you’re not even choosing yourself. 

Amanda: Nope. No, because when you’re, I mean, even in that high achiever role, you’re still self sabotaging. You’re still self betraying because you’re not actually getting what you want. You’re getting the appearance. Like what you want is a wife who you know chooses you and what you’re getting by forcing it is a wife who really doesn’t want to choose you. 

Rhonda: Yeah. For a wife who doesn’t feel safe to choose you. You’re not even giving her a choice anymore, right? Because you’re saying you have to do this for me to be happy. And so then she’s coerced into certain things. Right? Until she thinks better of that. But even if she follows through such a good point on the actions that you think you want, they won’t feel genuine. They won’t feel loving. You will still be left empty and she will still be left feeling like she has no choice and can’t be heard or seen or known. Ugh. That’s dynamic.

Amanda: I know. My heart breaks for both of them because they think they’re trying to create what they want and they’re actually digging themselves into a deeper hole. 

Rhonda: Yes. I feel a little bit like this is a bummer. So I wonder if we could leave it with a couple of questions that actually if you find yourself in this pattern, like what can you do? 

So here’s on the high achiever end, I would start asking myself around what topics of sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, maybe something else, do I most feel the urge to control my partner. I would just start there for awareness, like where do I feel this angsty desperation that I have to have them do something to make me happy? And I would just start calling that out over and over, like, Oh, there it is again. Oh, this, just to sort of start to create some awareness and interrupt that thought feeling, behavior pattern. Right? 

Amanda: Yeah. And with that other dynamic, I would tell the women or that underachiever, or whatever you want to call them, is to look at where your resentments lie. Look at where you are self sabotaging, where you are self betraying, and where you are not standing up for what you actually want for yourself and for the marriage. 

Rhonda: I love that. And I wonder if both partners, once they notice their urge to control and where their resentments are, if they could both think about, Okay, What am I trying to seek safety from, or what type of safety am I trying to find in this behavior? Either in this, you know, avoidance or resentment place or in this control place, because that’s going to tune us into how our primal brain is at work. And when we can start calling that out, then we take back our agency. We’re no longer driven by these emotional, reactivity, primal urges. But then we get to start saying, Okay, I see you, I feel you. I can also see what this has been causing in the relationship, and we can start to step into what I choose or what we want to do instead. 

Amanda: Yes, and I think when you notice this, have so much compassion for yourself. Like a lot of times when clients will start to see this in themselves, they don’t go into the shame spiral. Right? And that’s not what we want ever, because that’s not actually going to change the dynamic. What we want here is for you to have compassion for yourself. There’s good reasons why you have done this. Like. I mean, you’ve got your family of origin and seeking that safety like. There are good reasons why. That doesn’t mean that you have to continue it. That doesn’t mean that you don’t want to change the dynamic, but really be compassionate and loving with yourself. There is good reasons why you’ve been doing what you’ve been doing, but now let’s choose something different.

Rhonda:  I love that you brought in the compassion side of that. I think that is beautiful on both sides. There are good reasons and it’s felt very safe and adaptive for a long time to fall into these roles.

Amanda: Yeah. And even though these roles aren’t comfortable, there is comfort in familiarity. And so while you might not like them, it’s hard to step out of that and into the discomfort of change and into the discomfort of growth. But, oh, it’s so worth it when you do. 

Rhonda: I believe that wholeheartedly. Something’s coming to my mind over and over. I hope it’s okay if I share. There was a man I was talking to recently and he was talking about how in his culture, he was taught that sexual intimacy was the most unifying act that a husband and wife could participate in. He’s like, it was supposed to be the place in our marriage that it was just for us, so holy, so sacred, and he said that one thought and teaching has caused me so much resentment, so much anger. He’s like, It has been the most divisive part of my marriage and it keeps coming to my mind. Right, because, we’re thinking of this compassion and this love peace for ourselves. And I’m guessing that a lot of your listeners have been taught something similar, and then they beat themselves up for being angry about what they were taught. Maybe they get angry at religion or church or parents or leaders or whoever taught them that. And he was so resistant. I said, Do you know that’s not a true thought? He was so blown away that that might not be true? I just said, I want to offer to you that thoughts don’t have to be true or false. They are just sentences that make you feel a certain way. And what if we just change a few words in them?  And so, I don’t know if this helps your listeners at all, but for him and I, we came up with this sentence, sexual intimacy has the potential to be so unifying in your marriage, but also has the potential to cause a lot of pain if we’re not aware of things like you just said, family of origin, primal brain, social norms, conditioning, and once we’re aware of that, we get to work on it. 

Amanda: Yep, absolutely. And that’s what we’re here for, right? You working with the men, me working with the women and working to bring awareness to all of that, those family of origin and conditioning and everything that we’ve received and how we can change that and actually create what we want in our marriages. Something beautiful, hopefully. 

Rhonda: Absolutely. 

Amanda: Okay, so tell my listeners where they can find you, because I’m sure there’s a whole bunch of men, they’re like, That is me and Yep, I need some help. 

Rhonda: You know, it’s funny that you say that. A lot of times the men will come and be like, My wife heard you, and she said, I need some help. 

Amanda: Well, it’s right. It’s always the other person that sees it. I get the husband’s like, My wife needs help from you, and you’re getting wives, My husband needs help from you. 

Rhonda: Yeah, and usually that doesn’t work. So that’s your cautionary tale right there from both of us. Usually when we try to coerce our partners into the help, it doesn’t work, but if anybody does want to find me, they can find me at rhondafarr.com, or Rhonda Farr_ coaching on Instagram. Those are the two places you’ll be able to find out most about me.

Amanda:  And we’ll make sure and get those linked in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me today, Rhonda. This was fantastic and I think it’s gonna be really helpful for my listeners. 

Rhonda: Thank you.