I recently had the opportunity to be a guest on the Therapy Brothers Podcast.  I talked with Tyler and Brannon about the difference between consumption and connection.  I really enjoyed our conversation and the insights that were shared and so I wanted to share it with my audience as well.  So here is our conversation.

Tyler: What is the difference between consumption and connection? 

Tyler: All right, well, let’s, uh, let’s get into it today.

We’ve got a guest on who is an expert in this field and can actually speak really well to the question that we have today. So, um, our guest is Amanda Louder. She is the founder of the Sex for Saints podcast and is a certified life coach and has a whole bunch of content on her podcast that will speak a lot to what we’re going to get into today as well.

So Amanda, thank you for being here. Glad to have you. 

Amanda: Thank you so much for having me.

Brannon: Amanda, you got like 321 episodes. You’ve been doing this for a while.

Amanda: Yeah. I’ve been doing this for more than six years. So it’s, it’s definitely my passion in life and, um, lots of good content there.

Brannon: You know a lot about sex, you know, a lot about, uh, religion and sex and all of that stuff.

So that’s awesome. I’ve been podcasting for about six or seven years too. So, um, let’s dive into it. Consumption versus connection.  What’s the difference? What is consumption of a human being?

Amanda: Yeah. So when I think about consumption focused sex, I’m thinking it’s really focused on physical pleasure, on personal gratification, where often the primary goal is to satisfy one’s own sexual needs. 

It’s typically more transactional, less emotional. In contrast to that connection during sex prioritizes mutual pleasure, emotional intimacy, and this deeper bond between partners. It’s about experiencing it together, fostering closeness, and just overall enhancing the relationship. We want the sexual relationship to be an enhancement of what’s going on in the marriage outside of the bedroom, rather than like, this is how it should be and this is the only place we get connection. 

Tyler: That’s a really good distinction here. We, uh, we have an audience where a lot of our callers, they have gone through some kind of infidelity. And there’s been like a breach of trust and then trying to figure out how to navigate, especially this concept of consumption versus connection gets really kind of messy, uh, with that. The typical thing might be that, you know, we’re working with a partnership and one of the partners says, sex and physical touch is my, is my primary form of like the love languages, right?

Amanda: Yep. 

Tyler: And then the other partner is going, well, I don’t really want to engage in that unless I feel safe and secure and connected. And then that’s where the standoff starts to happen inside of that relationship. I mean, you chuckled at that, like, what’s your initial first thought or impression about how to navigate that dynamic?

Amanda: Well, I think calling out the lie that sex is not a love language. I mean, if we’re looking typically at the five love languages, physical touch, but that means you’re also going to be satisfied with hugging, kissing, cuddling, just other touch outside of sex. That’s going to help you feel loved and satisfied if you are seeking, um, love only through sex, then I’m guessing you’re actually seeking more validation rather than love. 

So that’s what that. And I think, you know, when you say, I can’t, you know, this is how I feel love, you’re expecting to be filled up and validated by your partner rather than the looking like, how do they love me instead of looking at how do I love them?

How do I love them in all parts of my life? As well as in sex and through my body.

Brannon: You just brought up something that I think is important, validation, because we see this a lot when we talk about consumption, it’s not just about using somebody’s body for your own pleasure, selfishly, it’s using somebody to give you something that you need.

And a lot of times what that is, is self worth. It’s validation. Like I think of a person who has sex in a partnership and they bring their partner to orgasm. It seems selfless. It seems wonderful. Right? But they do it in a way where it’s like, Oh, I feel so awesome now. I’m so amazing. I get self worth from this. So even in the partner having an orgasm, you can still be consuming your partner, right? 

Amanda:  Yes,absolutely. Absolutely. That happens so often, actually, at least in what I hear in my work, but like, you’re like, no, I like, I’m making sure she has her orgasm, right? But if she doesn’t, what doesn’t, what does it do to you?

Brannon: Yeah

Amanda: What do you think? What are you feeling afterwards? Like, Oh, I failed at this or no, I have to work harder at this because if their orgasm equates to me being a good lover, me being a good person, then you’re consuming that and you’re extracting rather than giving.

Tyler: I think there’s a key word in that, in the idea of extraction.

I don’t think a lot of people who are maybe engaging in consumptive kinds of sex really think of it as an extraction, but especially with the way Brennon, you just described it. That I’m helping my partner to feel way better. But you did it so that you could be good enough. And that, that is still an extraction from instead of an offering to.

And that’s one of the challenges. I listened to Susan Johnson who just recently passed away. She was like a pioneer in our field, but she kind of outlined a couple of different kinds of sex that she called one of them was called soulless sex, which is kind of that one where it’s like, I’m, I’m engaging in sex in order to fill a void that’s there, for me to be good enough for me to feel like I’m appreciated or, or I’m capable. 

And then the other kind of sex that she just self described was called sealed off sex. And this was this I’m in my own body having my own experience going towards whatever end that’s going to be, but I’m missing that connection and that dance between the two. And it seems that both of those kinds of sex that she described would fall sort of in at different ends of the same end of consumption based sex rather than connection based sex.

Amanda: Right. And a lot of times, especially from the women’s perspective, they don’t quite understand why they don’t want sex. Like, yeah, I have an orgasm, yeah, but I, I’m just not desiring it. Because what they’re not understanding is they’re feeling that extraction. Like they feel like they’re constantly having to validate their partner and they’re being consumed rather than really being open hearted.

There’s that emotional connection inside and outside the bedroom, right? They feel that. A lot of women will say, like, I’m so touched out. The last thing I want is for him to touch me. But when are, when, and I get that with, when we have lots of little kids that are, you know, climbing on us all day, they’re extracting from us.

And then if you move that into the bedroom and you have a spouse who is also extracting rather than truly giving and replenishing and nourishing them and the relationship. Like, who wants that?  

Brannon: Yeah, I want to back up a little bit and just kind of hear your thoughts on this. Um, so like, these ideas of pleasure and gratification, um, like we don’t want to demonize those things. Pleasure and gratification are fine. They’re actually good things, right?

Amanda: Yes, good things.

Brannon: The problem with them is, what then? How can they be problematic?

Amanda: When you don’t have the connection there. When it’s strictly about pleasure, then it becomes about consumption, right? It’s like, what can I get out of this situation? Rather than how can I love you? And pleasure is going to be part of that for both of us.

Brannon: So if you’re experiencing pleasure, it doesn’t mean you’re in a consumptive state.

Amanda: No.

Brannon: If you’re doing it in a selfish way where it’s just about getting pleasure, it means you’re in a consumptive state.

Amanda: Or just about giving pleasure to validate you. 

Brannon: Oh yeah. That too. Yeah. So pleasure isn’t bad. I just wanted to make sure we throw that out there. Part of sexual connection and part of sex is pleasure and that’s part of connection.

Amanda: Yes.

Brannon: I think a lot of it has to do with presence. It’s about being with the person where they’re at in that moment.

Amanda: For sure. 

Brannon: If you’re disconnected, you’re disconnected from the present moment of what’s actually going on. So like take the wife who’s had kids crawling on her all day long. The husband is like trying to grab her in all kinds of places. Like he is not present with where she’s at on an energetic level where she’s out with her body. He’s not present with her. So he’s disconnected and he’s just trying to consume her.

Amanda: Yes. I totally agree with that. And again, pleasure is a really good thing. Um, Emily Nagoski’s new book Come Together, it says pleasure is the measure. We want sex that’s pleasurable, right? But if it doesn’t feel pleasurable, just because like physically it feels pleasurable, but it doesn’t feel pleasurable emotionally, it doesn’t feel pleasurable, like with connectedness, then we’re not going to want that kind of sex.

Tyler: It seems that kind of where you guys are both going, that I’m glad you brought this up because I get this question in my, in my practice all the time, especially from a lot of the men that I work with is they almost feel because they’ve been, they’ve treated sex a certain way all the way up through say their own pornography addiction or into their affairs or whatever else.

And now they have this snapback reaction, which is that, well, then I shouldn’t be attracted to my wife anymore. And I shouldn’t be turned on by her anymore. And the fact that I’m turned on and that I want that. And then I even like to  fantasize about her and all that stuff makes me bad. And what I’m hearing you guys say is that the sexual drive, the sexual urges, pleasure itself would actually be ingredients of a recipe that need to be there for connected sex to happen. They just can’t be the end result themselves. 

Amanda: You totally summed it up. Yeah. I would agree with that. 

Brannon: I think it’s also possible, and I’d love your take on this, Amanda, two people come together and they have pleasurable sex on a physical level. Let’s say they both get off and it’s amazing. And it’s great just in that, on that level.

And that sex actually did damage to their relationship. It hurt their intimacy. Um, the cost to that sex. Would you say that that does happen?

Amanda: Yeah, it definitely happens. I actually just did a podcast on how we often use sex as a bandaid to cover up other things that are going on in our marriage.

Like, you know, sometimes sex is the measure, like if the sex is really good, the marriage is good. And other times sex is just the bandaid where it’s pleasurable. We’re both getting off. We’re having a good time while we’re there. But we’re not actually dealing with a lot of the other things that are going on under the surface outside of the bedroom.

We’re not dealing with the conflicts in our marriage. We’re just using sex to cover it all up.

Tyler: That would explain the scenario that often happens where couples we work with start to lean back together and maybe they do have a really nice experience together sexually that hasn’t been there for a while.

And then the very next morning, say the husband wakes up and is like, Let’s do that again right now. Like that was awesome last night. And she’s like, well, that was great last night. And like, No, not right now. And he’s like, but, but it felt great for both of us. Like, why wouldn’t we be doing this all the time?

And he’s still kind of in that mode of the physical element is what drove that experience. And she’s like, yeah, that was wonderful, but it was wonderful for all of the other aspects that were also there last night, but she can’t put that to words oftentimes. Like, she’s like, yeah, I did feel good. And if we focus on just the physical, it did feel great.

And the reason it felt so great to me is because there were all these other factors that I don’t know how to put words to. 

Amanda: Right. And a lot of times it’s our regressive brain going back, like, yes, this was a really good experience, but we still have all this other stuff going on that is unresolved and that we need to continue to work on.

So yes, while I had a really good experience and I’m so glad we did it and it was connecting and physically pleasurable, that doesn’t negate everything else that’s going on. 

And I mean, we need that safety and security. And we can have those moments. Sure. But also our regressive brain goes, wait, hold on a minute. Don’t forget all of this other stuff. We need to keep moving in a good direction and the sex doesn’t just fix that.

Brannon: I’m just thinking, and maybe I’ll go off on a tangent here that we can bring it back. I hope. But I just think women on a survival instinctual level, they want a man who is strong and secure.

Um, but they also want a man who is kind and connected, that will be there for her through the hard times, you know, while she’s pregnant, while she’s having babies, like he stays. And so it makes sense why a woman wants a man who is actually connected to her in order for her to be vulnerable enough to really have some great sex. It makes total sense.

Now to a man’s thinking, well, it’s my job to like plant the seed, like results. I just want to get this done. I want to go like, let’s do this. Right. And a lot of times a man doesn’t understand why that connective piece is so integral, so important in terms of sex in a marriage. Right.

Amanda: Yeah. I mean, biologically speaking, you know, if we’re looking back like caveman days, right.

A woman is only going to have sex with a man that she knows can take care of her and a child that might come from it. So that’s just hardwired into our biology. And I mean, whether you’re trying to have kids or not, or, you know, you’re past that stage, it’s still there. It’s still wired in. And so making sure that you feel connected and you know that he’s going to be there for you, no matter what happens through those hard times, that’s integral to feeling connected and having a good sexual life.

Brannon: That’s why in pointer guys, for you guys listening, if you come home and your wife had one of those days where the kids were crawling all over her and you stop for a minute and empathize and understand what it was like for her and maybe give her some space. Like that’s sexy in the long run. Like that actually leads to trust, safety, and good sex in the relationship.

Amanda: Absolutely. 

Tyler: Or maybe a hug without touching all of the parts of her body that knows you just want to consume her in that moment. 

Brannon: Yeah.

Amanda: Absolutely. Or, you know, saying, I know you’ve had a hard day, tonight I want to just like give you a massage and help you relax. No strings attached. I’m not looking for sex.

If it leads there, that’s fine. Right. But that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m looking to give to you and replenish you and nourish you through this experience. 

Brannon: And that has to be genuine. It has to be without the agenda attached of like, yes, I’m going to do this, but later, like later, later, you know…

Tyler: That’s the transactional piece that you mentioned that’s so hard to overcome because in the back of your brain, you know, and I’m thinking of myself as a man, even my own experience in my own recovery, like in the back of your brain, it’s hard to put that voice down a little bit, no matter what. It’s like, we refer to it as the daily quest where it’s like, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe… We might end up here today and it’s like, I actually have to let go and learn how to surrender that.

Amanda: Yeah.

Tyler: And trust that I can just love my partner. And this is the weird paradoxes.The more that I learned how to actually do that with presence, the more she actually starts to say, I want to lean in. I want to lean back. It’s like the safety and the trust is what actually gives her the permission to open more, to lean more.

Amanda: Absolutely. Absolutely. I totally agree with that. And I think for so many men, that is a missing piece that they’re not able to soothe their own emotions and calm that voice down. And then it overrides everything and you miss the connection that you could have. 

Brannon: Yeah. Yep.  Um, I want to shift gears a little bit because we’ve been talking a lot in terms of gender, um, just one way where men consume women in terms of sex and if we could just speak to, because I know that women use sex as well in some way, right? But it’s a little bit different. Um, so like, if we could just talk about that, like, how do women use their partner and use sex to get things and to consume? 

Amanda: Yeah. I mean, women definitely will use sex as a weapon. They’ll also use it to get what they want. I mean, I can’t tell you how many women are like, I know if I have sex with him, he’ll behave better. 

Brannon: Yeah.

Amanda: And I think in some ways, I mean, that’s totally true and men have to figure that piece out. Right. But women have to stop doing that too. And so, you know, or like, I know that if I give him sex, he’ll give me whatever I want

Brannon: Yeah.

Amanda: Right. And that’s missing for both, that it’s missing that connection. It becomes transactional and it doesn’t work to create a really, truly beautiful, intimate connection and sexual relationship. 

Brannon: You know, what we see a lot, Amanda is where a woman’s been betrayed or hurt in some way and so she starts having sex more in the relationship. It’s using sex to feel wanted to feel like, look, I, you still want me. Right? And, and also like control, like, well, if I have sex with him, then he’s not going to go act out with someone else or this or that. So using sex in those ways in order to feel okay.

Amanda: It’s the validation piece.

Brannon: Totally validation. Yeah. 

Amanda: Right. And the control for sure. Um, it’s also a way that women like mark their territory. Like, you know, no, he’s mine, so I’m going to do this and he’s not going to go anywhere else. 

Tyler: Well, it seems when that happens too, it’s its own kind of a trap because I’ll have a couple who has that, the betrayal has happened. They’re trying to repair it. And then she will kind of like overdo it on like, let’s do everything you’ve ever wanted sexually. And then he’s coming in and he’s like, Dang, like things have gotten way better. Like it’s amazing, you know, and she’s coming in and she’s depleted and she’s like, I can’t keep up.

I don’t know what else to do. Like this doesn’t feel right, but I feel like I have to do it. And there’s such a disconnect because he’s still so stuck in his own consumptive place, but now she’s also doing it to try to, she’s trying to create safety and security, but in all the wrong ways. And then it burns her out. And then eventually there’s almost like another falling out in the relationship when she’s like, yeah, I can’t do it anymore. You know? 

Amanda: Yeah. I see that all the time too. And it’s, I mean, it tends to kind of be a rollercoaster until both people can see the patterns that they’re contributing to and step into a place of integrity within themselves. This is who I want to be. This is how I want to show up in the relationship and not take ownership over their spouse’s part.

Brannon: You just nailed it right there. And this is what we see all the time. Couples are in ruts  and they just are doing like they, you know, they got married and they start getting in these patterns and next thing you know, sex is not a, not a good thing for the marriage, it’s a bad thing, but they keep staying in these same patterns again. And what you just said, Amanda, is to stop and get conscious yourself. To take accountability for your part, to understand how you’ve used your partner, to let go of that and to stop doing that. But you’re noticing it. Um, it’s not about your partner coming to you and saying, stop using me, right?

It’s about you going to yourself and saying, stop using them. I want to love them. I want to be connected to them. That’s pretty important what you just said, get conscious, get accountable. Um, become aware of what’s going on. 

Amanda: Absolutely. And I’ll just, you know, put in a plug for all of us. Sometimes you need some outside help to help you see that part of it. And because so many times we don’t want to be introspective. We don’t want to look at ourselves and see how we’ve contributed to the dynamic and we’re stuck in blaming our partner. For everything. And not to say that your partner’s blameless, right?

Like they definitely have their part too. It always takes two, but sometimes you need that outside perspective that can point out how you are both contributing to the dynamic that you have created. And how to get out of it.

Tyler: So I kind of have a question here for you guys to kind of think through. I was talking to a guy just the other day and he’s really wrestling with this. I mean, he just got done reading with his wife, Come as You Are.  And he’s trying to figure out brakes and accelerators. And then we were talking about the day that they had just had. And he was like, I’m still hoping that we have sex all day long, but I’m trying not to make that be an expectation. And then he’s like, but if I show up and if I’m a good man and I do get home and I help out with whatever’s going on around the house and I feel the energy in the room and then I, you know, and then I show up and I get the kids all put to bed early and then I, maybe I rub her feet for a minute and then we have sex. Is that not still transactional?  

And I guess I’m wondering like. In my mind, I didn’t see that as transactional because if you actually let go of the pressure and the expectation and just be the person you want to be, then that connection sexually happens to just happen. And in his mind, I think he’s still thinking, but yeah, that was still the daily quest in some way. 

How do you move from a place of, if you’re used to it being a transactional thing on either end of the spectrum, how do you actually start to move towards connection then? 

Amanda: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s looking at your motivations, right? Are you helping, you know, with the house and putting the kids to bed and rubbing your wife’s feet because you want sex?

Or are you doing that because you’re a partner in this marriage? You’re a parent, you want to be a good husband because that’s genuinely who you want to be. Like sex is going to flow from that naturally when you are showing up within integrity of yourself and being a good partner and husband.

Brannon: Going along with what Amanda’s saying, you know, it’s the energy behind it. So, um, you know, if he’s rubbing her feet and all these things, and let’s say he initiates, like he goes for it and she rejects him, you’ll see on the backend where the energy was, if he’s resentful and pouty, and I did all these things for you, all along that was, that was consumptive stuff. It was transactional. 

But if he’s going to rub her feet or do the dishes on a day when she’s not even around or available for sex, but that’s the kind of guy he is, he’s not that type of guy. 

So like Amanda, you just said, it leads to sex, like this type of stuff leads to sex, that’s okay, but it’s the energy behind it that really matters.

Amanda: Totally. And I think you’re absolutely right, Brannon, on the other end, if she does reject him, then what happens is really revealing about what those motivations were, right? 

But if he’s like, that’s okay. It’s okay for him to be disappointed. Disappointment is a normal emotion, but do you take that disappointment out on your wife?  Right? 

And a lot of times these wives are like, well, I can’t handle him being disappointed. So I’m going to say yes to something that I don’t actually want to say yes to. And then like, yeah, he got the sex, but it wasn’t connecting.

And yeah, she had it. And then she resents him afterwards.

Brannon: There’s this really magical place for couples to get to where I can be comfortable with my partner being uncomfortable. 

Amanda: Yes.

Brannon: So if you get to that place, then like, it’s okay for him to be disappointed. It’s also okay for him to be honest, like, Hey, I want to rub your feet and I hope it leads to sex.

And for her to be able to say, Well, I’d love a foot rub and it may or may not. I don’t know. We’ll see. Right. And it’s, and let’s say it doesn’t, he’s disappointed. She can sit in, I’m okay with him being disappointed. That’s actually a really healthy relationship. That’s a good thing.

Amanda: Yes, it is. And honesty is intimate, right?

You’re building that intimacy in your relationship when you can be honest with each other and be able to sit with your own uncomfortable emotions and your partner’s uncomfortable emotions.

Tyler:  There’s a level of maturity that I think couples have to grow into and I think they sometimes feel like they’re failing when this change starts to happen when in reality, it’s part of the step that you guys are talking about right now where, you know, if I pursue my wife and she says no, and I am disappointed, but instead of pulling the covers away and rolling over and being rejected and like, oh, poor me. I’m able to say, Okay, that’s hard, but yeah, I totally respect that. And I wouldn’t want to engage with you unless you were ready. 

If she sees my disappointment and goes proof, proof, you’re not in recovery proof. You don’t want to get better, she’s missing the boat that my disappointment was going to be there no matter what, but I can manage my disappointment and she can learn to trust me to manage it without mistreating her at the same time that she can offer grace for that process to happen.

And that’s hard for her too, because she’s got that pressure, like, Oh no, I’ve disappointed him. Something’s wrong with me. And if both couples can at least agree that this is the practice we’re in right now. It’s okay. Like it’s okay, that actually does really build, I love what you said, Honesty is intimacy. And, I think some couples, they feel like it should just instantly be like, he doesn’t have any sexual drives after he approached me and now he’s all better now. And it’s like, no, it’s going to take him a minute, both physiologically and emotionally to be able to hang in there and get re engaged.

But if you see him doing that work. That’s good work.

Amanda: That’s good work. Absolutely.

Brannon: I just think one of the  big setups in all of this is, well, it’s two things. It’s the way we’re conditioned and socialized. You know, we get into relationships and we think, well, you know, there should be a cadence. Um, you know, guys should get it every so often, blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff. Um, and expectations get set, which then lead to not being connected during sex.

It’s like, okay, I’m falling into this system 

Tyler: Pressure 

Brannon: …that’s now pressurized. And I’m in this system and this is how we do it. This is what we do. And you’re missing the point of a relationship. Everybody’s unique. Everyone’s sexuality is unique. When you take a step back out of those systems and say, I want to know you, you want to know me, let’s merge together in this beautiful way that is independent of all these shoulds all around us. So… it’s complicated.

Amanda: Marriage is complicated. Sex is complicated. And it just is. That’s why we have jobs, right?

Brannon: Exactly.  So, well, Jody.  

Tyler: Not Jody. 

Brannon: Why do I call you Jody? I got Jody on my mind. I was talking about Jody earlier. Amanda. Where can people find you? Like where do they find your stuff, your podcast, everything?

Amanda: Yeah. So the podcast is called Sex for Saints. It’s on all the podcast platforms. Um, my website is amandalouder.com. That’s where you can go there and find my podcast if you need to, or other interviews I’ve done like this one, um, resources, my coaching programs. And then I’m pretty active on Instagram and my handle is @christiansexcoach

Brannon: You’re killing it, Amanda. You’re helping a lot of people and doing a lot of good. It’s awesome. 

Amanda: Thank you. Thank you. It really is my passion in life. It’s what I enjoy. I always say my life revolves around sex, salmon, and softball.

My husband’s a huge salmon fisherman. We own a fishing tackle company. 

Brannon: Oh my Gosh!

Amanda: We’re fishing just about every weekend, unless we’re at softball. Cause our middle daughter plays college softball. So between those three things, the three S’s, that’s my life.

Brannon: It sounds like a great life.

Tyler: That’s a great life. That’s a great life.  We’ll probably have to have her husband on the show sometime too. 

Brannon: I’m going to Alaska next week. So I’d love have him on!

Tyler: Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you so much, Amanda, for your willingness to come on and share your expertise and your experience today. Um, for those of you listening up for our listeners, if you’re hearing this and you want more, go check her out with those things.

If this resonated with you and you know it’ll help somebody else, please share this with somebody else who could benefit from it. And until next time, you guys, keep on keeping on. See ya.