In this episode I’m talking with Mike Frazier, MD of Strong Men, Strong Marriages. I share what the woman thinks when she says that she doesn’t care if she ever has sex again. And then Mike lets us in on what the men think about. This is a great episode where you can really see what is going on in your husband’s mind when it comes to sex and intimacy and he could get a glimpse into what you think as well.
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Find Mike Frazier, MD at his website or his podcast Strong Men, Strong Marriages or on Instagram.
Amanda: Hello everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited to share this conversation with my friend Mike Frazier, MD, with you today. We just decided to get together and have a conversation and record a podcast for both of our podcasts. So it’s gonna be a little mixture of me and him and just our conversation.
But before we get started, I wanted to remind you about the Women’s Retreat that we have coming up in February of 2023. It’s February 1st through 5th in St. George, Utah. It’s gonna be so amazing. It’s already half sold out, so if you want to get in, you need to hurry because ticket sales are picking up as we get closer and closer, and spots are going fast. And especially if you want to be able to pick the bed that you want and the price point that you want, you need to get in fast. So just a little reminder, we show up Wednesday night about 5:00 PM. It runs through Sunday morning, 9:00 AM so you can fly into either St. George or Vegas Wednesday and take the shuttle from Vegas. We’ll help arrange rides once you get to St. George or if you fly into St. George with each other, and it’s gonna be an amazing week.
We have gourmet meals with a chef coming in. There’s going to be boudoir photography for all of our guests. If you want to, if you don’t wanna do boudoir, that’s totally fine, but hair and makeup is included for all of the guests so that you can be looking your best. Our photographers and glam squad are just amazing people and it just is really a life changing experience, which is why I continue to do it.
You’re gonna have me teaching and coaching as well as some fellow guest coaches that I bring in to help teach you even more. It’s going to be amazing few days and all of my clients who come, all the women who come, end up having a wonderful experience and I want that for you too. So if you have been thinking about coming, make sure you get your ticket soon.
I’m going to be making payment plans available only through the beginning of October. So if you want a payment plan, you need to get in quick. You can do up to four payments, so it makes it fairly doable. They just have to be paid by January. So it makes it really, really simple and I cannot wait to have all of you there and to share such an amazing experience with all of you.
All right, let’s get to my conversation with Mike Frazier, MD, who is a men’s marriage and intimacy coach.
Mike: All right guys. Welcome, today we have a very special episode. This is gonna be a joint episode with Strong Men, Strong Marriages, with me, Mike Frazier, MD and, Amanda Lauder with Sex for Saints podcast. So we’re gonna be kind of combining and it’s gonna be a real fun thing. So, we’ll both introduce ourselves, but we’ll have Amanda introduce herself first here.
Amanda: Hey everyone, I am so excited to talk to you today. So I’m Amanda Louder. I’m a Certified Sex and Marriage Coach. I typically help conservative Christian women who want to really learn to embrace their sexuality and love their sex life. So that’s kind of my focus. I’ve been coaching for, gosh, four and a half years. I am a wife to Kevin. We’ve been married for 10 years. We’re a blended family, second marriage for both of us. And we have five kids ranging in age from 14 to 22, and we live in Salt Lake City. So that’s me.
Mike: Awesome. Great. And yeah, if you guys are hearing about me for the first time, my name’s Mike Frazier, MD. I’m a psychiatrist and I do marriage coaching for men. In particular high achieving Christian men who want more intimate marriages.
So typical problems would be similar to what Amanda is talking about, which is why its a great joint podcast, the sex life just isn’t quite where you want it to be at the lower end and more severe ends, maybe there’s been infidelity one way or the other, or you’re even looking at separation or divorce.
We kind of run that whole spectrum with the guys that we work with. I wanted to have Amanda on and we’re gonna just kind of go back and forth a little bit, but one of the things that I hear guys worry about when they come to me, they tell this to me their wife says something like, Hey look, I know you like sex, but I just, I don’t even care if we ever have sex again. Like, it would be fine with me if we never had sex again in our marriage.
So that’s very disheartening for a guy to hear.
Amanda: Yes, I’m sure.
Mike: Just curious, what are your thoughts about that from your side?
Amanda: Well, I hear that from a lot of women too.
Amanda: They come to me and I think often pressured by their spouse to figure this out because they feel like they could never have sex again and be totally fine.
And so what I really like to look at with them is why. What’s happening there that they feel like they could be fine without sex ever again. And Is that what they want for their marriage? Because if that’s what they want, why are they even coming to me?
Amanda: I get that there’s pressure from the spouse, but if it’s not something that they really want to fix for themselves, if they’re doing it for him, that’s usually not in a good enough reason.
And so then we have to really dig in and figure out why they feel that way. Do they just have a lack of desire, which is so common in women? Are they having bad sex? Like sex that they just don’t like? Has there been some sort of trauma? We just need to get at the heart of really what’s going on behind that phrase, because I do feel like it’s a pretty common phrase.
Mike: Yeah. Great question. So would that be a summary of the main ones that you see? Low desire, maybe there’s some trauma or kind?
Amanda: Yeah. I think women often, and men, frame women’s sexuality to look like men’s sexuality. So we think that sex should look like what a man’s does, and if it doesn’t look like what a man’s does, then we’re somehow broken.
And so when we can start to understand and look through the lens of women’s sexuality, that it looks very different than a man’s, then that education piece is really important to start to understand that women, most often don’t have spontaneous desire. It’s not just born out of nowhere. That their desire comes more from contextual experiences.
It’s more responsive that they have to be thinking sexy thoughts and scenarios in order for it to happen. That they have to often be touched for it to happen. So I always tell them that desire usually is born out of arousal rather than arousal being born out of desire, which of course that’s from the work of Emily Nagoski.
I want women to understand that the desire that they have is really normal. That a lot of people say, Oh, I could just never have sex again. Although when we do have it, it’s actually pretty good.
Amanda: And I’m like, Okay. So that’s something we have to understand there. Now, if they’re having bad sex, that’s a different story.
Are they having pain? Are they just not liking what’s happening? Are they framing it around men’s sexuality? That they’re doing it as a duty for their husband, satisfying his sexual needs, but they’re not understanding how they experience pleasure and how sex can be for them. I think that’s a really important piece.
And then really understanding if it’s just boring? It’s like if you eat the exact same thing every day, it’s going to get boring. Food’s not gonna be very appealing. Eventually everybody even gets sick of pizza, right?
So if it’s just boring, then let’s figure out some ways to make it more exciting. So narrowing down why it’s bad sex is really helpful.
Mike: So what came to mind for me when you were talking was, Okay, she needs to be having sexy thoughts or like, contextual.
So as the husband who’s wanting to create some of that context or those kinds of things, what are some problematic ways guys go about doing that?
Amanda: Good way to start, yes.
Mike: So I always start with that and then go into, Okay, what could they do instead?
What are some of the common ways guys will go about it because, it seems like, and correct me if I’m wrong, that women have to go from cold to warm to hot.
And a lot of guys want them to go from cold to hot. They think, Okay, I wash the dishes, so now let’s have sex. Or they think, Go grab her breast or just roll over in bed. No build up, right? There’s nothing going on through the day is a problem I see. You know? Is that kind of when you see?
Amanda: Oh yeah. I see that so often! And we have to also understand that men like to be touched differently than women like to be touched. You know, like most men I’m familiar with, if you just go and grab their package, they are on board with that!
With women, if you are grabbing their breasts and genitals and they’re not warmed up yet, you’re in trouble.
Amanda: You’re not getting sex.
Amanda: That is not the right way to go about it. So, I always say that you have to meet your wife where she is. So, you’re right, we have to warm up.
So I talk about it like a car. We have different gears. You might as a man be up in like gear three or four, like ready to go, and she’s back here in gear one and you can’t expect her to be where you are. So, you have to go move down to her level and where she is. That might mean, holding hands, a light kiss, rubbing her back, and slowly starting to warm up, but also doing that not just for the purpose of getting sex.
Amanda: Right? We can read you pretty well , and we know when we’re like, Oh yeah, he’s just in the mood. He’s warming me up rather than like, Oh, he’s doing this because he actually loves me and cares about me.
Amanda: And sure he probably likes sex, but he’s also going to be okay if he doesn’t get it. He’s still going to do it.
And I think that’s really one of the biggest things for women, like what men can do to help them and start moving up that arousal scale that we want to go through. All of those different gears that we want to go through is, more than anything, women want to be seen and heard and they love that emotional connection.
And I know men have a harder time with that without that physical connection first. And so, I’m always coaching women on how you can create that emotional connection with your husband even if he’s not doing these things that you think he should be doing to create that?
So I think it’s an individual responsibility, but we want to be seen and heard. We want to be recognized for what needs to happen. We don’t want you doing the dishes just to get sex. We want you doing the dishes because you’re an adult and you live in our home and that’s just part of the things that need to happen in a home.
Amanda: I think Jennifer Finlayson-Fife recently talked about the difference between adulting and loving. Are you being an adult or are you being loving?
Amanda: And that makes a difference.
Mike: Yeah. The way I frame that particular one with guys is that it’s like the difference between being a partner and being a contractor, right?
Mike: In your home, like in a business, if you’re a partner, your goal is the success of that business, right?
Mike: And so, in your house, you want to be a partner in that, and your reward is a clean house and kids that are loved and successful in life.
Mike: Versus a contractor gets hired to do something and they expect a reward, a payment for that. Right?
Amanda: Yes. I love that framing.
Mike: So, you do the addition, when you say, Okay, time for my payment, let’s go have sex now. Whether that’s very clear or not, like you said, and this is what I work on really hard with the guys is you can pair right actions. You can do “right actions”, but like the model we use, and you probably use the model too, right?
Mike: So we do the same thing, but we put just one extra column, the intention, after the action, right? We just really look closely so you can pair “right action”, but if you’re feeling, Okay, I did the dishes, the thought is, Oh, maybe I’ll have sex now, your feeling’s like anxious, kind of anticipation, owed it. Right?
So then the action is fine, right? Do the dishes, but the intention is basically manipulate my wife into having sex.
And what gets picked up is feelings and intentions. That is what’s getting communicated all the time. And where does that come from? It’s the way you’re thinking and believing. So yeah, that’s kind of what we really focus on, it’s those feelings and intentions that are attractive or not.
So that’s why I talked to the guys a lot about if you feel like you’re owed sex, is that attractive to your wife?
Amanda: No, it’s not .
Mike: Right? They usually come up with that same answer, but it just helps them see it, right? Or like, you owe it to me. The way that I really put that is Dude, you’re treating her like a prostitute. Really, you really are, You’re trying to purchase sex by these actions. They think, I did enough dishes, now it’s time for sex. That is very close to just saying, Okay, here’s 20 bucks now let’s go.
Mike: It really is.
Amanda: Yeah. It really is. And I just think that we have to really look at those thoughts and feelings that are driving the actions, because like you said, the actions can look the same, but the thoughts and feelings that drive those actions produce different results.
Amanda: So if we’re looking at this just action based, what are the feelings and thoughts driving those actions, and that’s really what’s going to show up.
That’s what’s readable by your spouse. And we’re really good at reading our spouses. Even though we think we’re really good actors, we are really good about reading our spouse, especially when it comes to sexual cues.
Amanda: I think especially women tend to be very on, very high alert when sex is an issue in their marriage. We tend to be on really high alert looking for those cues, sometimes misreading them, but we are usually pretty right on.
Mike: So we talked about the problematic ones. A lot of it’s the way you’re thinking and feeling, feeling owed it. I think this happens a lot in Christian marriages too, and I’ve even talked to some couples who’ve talked to pastors and they’re kind of like basically telling the wife to just have sex with him anyway.
Amanda: Yeah.That’s why you don’t go to someone who’s not qualified. That’s why!
Because I think some women are scared to come to me because they think that I’m just going to tell them to have more sex.
Amanda: Like the way to solve this is to just to have more sex Eventually, you’ll like it .
Amanda: And I will never tell a woman to have sex unless she really wants to.
Amanda: I actually did a reel a little while ago about that and I got so much flack for it. All these men were saying, No, you can’t just cut it off.
And I said, Oh yeah, we can! Because if you’re not showing up the right way, if you’re just expecting it to happen and it’s just an expectation in your marriage, that’s a problem.
I had one guy even tell me that it’s a sin for her to not have sex with her husband. And I was like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no. That creates so many problems.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. The way I like to phrase it to the guys is that your wife can’t say yes unless she can say no.
Amanda: Oh, a hundred percent.
Mike: She really can’t and say no without you acting like a baby.
Like if she says no, and he says things like you owe this to me, or he just sulks.
Mike: I call it the RomCom test. Would you ever see a guy doing that in a romantic comedy? No way!
Mike: You’re not going to, but it’s so common. You’ll see it in most marriages.
Amanda: Oh, oh, for sure.
Mike: But, it just shows that you can’t manage yourself emotionally, and that’s just very unattractive.
Amanda: So we talk a lot about that in my practice too, the care taking. That care taking your husband is never sexy.
Amanda: That is, as women, we’re taking care of the house, we’re taking care of the kids, we’re doing all of that, the last thing we want to do is take care of our husband too. And if you look at it biologically speaking, we’re not supposed to be attracted to people we take care of.
Amanda: So if we’re having to take care of our husbands, that’s not attractive.
Amanda: What we really want is a man, not a boy.
Amanda: A man who is an adult about it, who can express his desires, but be okay if he doesn’t get what he wants.
Mike: That’s the way I describe it to the guys too. It’s counterintuitive, but yeah, when she says no, and you can just say, Okay, cool. Why don’t we just watch a show together tonight, or something like that.
Mike: Then guess what? Next time, there’s a much higher chance it’s a yes, right?
Mike: And especially if you combine it with the stuff you’re talking about where you are kind of having fun and flirting through the day and touching in non-sexual ways, right?
Mike: Or maybe getting it a little bit more sexual as the day goes on.
Amanda: As the day goes on. Yes. It’s not like, you know, okay, well let’s start at level three. Nope. We gotta start at level one and build that up and part of that being seen and heard is those connection pieces, those little touch points throughout the day.
Amanda: Like if you are texting your wife throughout the day, how’s your day going, you looked really beautiful this morning, just different things. Again, not just so you can have sex, but because it’s genuine connection pieces, then that’s going to help her have more sexy thoughts and have more connecting thoughts that it’s going to make sex more likely to happen, just because she’s feeling more connected to you.
Mike: You know, I target high achieving guys because this is my story, right? And a lot of the guys in the program are successful in their careers, right? They’ve typically had a good level of success. And they have found that the way you get stuff outside of a relationship is you just target it and you just go for it, right?
Mike: But with sex, it doesn’t work quite that way. And so it’s very hard. It’s kind of hard to wrap your head around.
Amanda: Okay. So maybe tell us a little bit about the head space that men are in so that the women that are listening to my podcast can understand the head space that their husbands are coming from.
Mike: Sure. So when it comes to sex there are some common problematic ways guys think about it. One is like that, especially if you’re a Christian Guy and you saved yourself for marriage, come into marriage thinking this is your time. This is your reward for waiting.
This thinking isn’t right, but it is common.
Mike: That’s when the guy is thinking, Hey, look, I’m paying for everything. I feel like I’m doing a good job taking care of the kids. This was part of the deal. And now you’re saying no, and that’s not fair, right?
And so then they can start feeling resentful about that. So a lot of times what they will do is, Well, okay, I listen to Amanda’s podcast and I know I need to do the dishes, right?I just have to do more for her. And then she’s going to want to have sex. Right?
So you’re doing, doing, doing all this stuff, and they’re not bad actions.
Like you read the five love languages, you do all five, right? You’re like, over the top. Now what do I do?
I remember for me, I would go to my closet and be like, Okay, which shirt is going to make her more attracted to me today, right? But the problem was everything was geared towards her saying yes to sex, right?
Mike: And that’s what got picked up. It’s what I call the mosquito cycle, right? You’re doing these nice things, but you’re expecting back sex in particular, but also like attention, appreciation, affection. Okay, so that’s the expectation. So you don’t get it. You start getting frustrated. And then eventually you either explode, How dare you treat me this way and look at everything I do for you.
Or you escape. You go to pornography, you go to work, you go to…
Amanda: The gym .
Mike: The gym. Or you know, in extreme cases you go find another girl who seems interested. But what I always tell the guys is you’re going to create the same thing over there.
Amanda: For sure.
Mike: Because it is a cycle, right? A lot of times it works at first. That’s the other hard thing because right at first you kind of learned, Hey, when I first met my wife, or even when we first got married, or even for the first several years of marriage, I did all this stuff and she was having sex. Right? So the formula works, right.
But eventually, your wife picks up, Oh, wait a second. We go back to those feelings and intentions, right? It’s not, Oh, I love you, I’m attracted to you. It’s just, I want sex and like this is kind of what I do to get it.
Mike: Eventually that gets picked up.
I think that’s the problematic way that guys often think about it. And then I think women, and you kind of spoke to this already, can kind of feel guilty, like, yeah, maybe that is the deal. Like maybe he is doing a lot and I should just want to have sex and, a lot of times, they kind of can’t even put their finger on it.
They think, Well, look at everything he does. He actually does a lot of stuff. So, why am I not attracted to him? I don’t get it.
Amanda: Yeah. I get that so much because they say that he’s such a good husband and he’s a good guy, and we work in every single area of our marriage except for the sexual department. And we don’t know what’s wrong because everything else is working so well.
Mike: And that’s what I help guys unravel and untie, right? Is that it’s all those thoughts that we just covered, right?
Mike: I’m owed it. There’s a trade here that’s going on, but again, the way I point to, it’s like that’s treating her like a prostitute and nobody likes that.
Especially if she’s had any kind of abuse. That’s unfortunately my story. My wife went through some really bad abuse and so she’s extra sensitive to that. And so I have to be even more on guard than maybe, someone that their wife didn’t go through that. To make sure my intentions are good.
And look, here’s the secret guys, I’ll tell you it right now, and Amanda just told it to you, right? It’s if your thoughts towards your wife are, I love you, I desire you, I care about you, I’m thinking about you, and you feel love and you feel attracted to her, right?
Then you do these things because of that, your intention is to show you care about her, that’s when you win, right? And when it’s not about getting something back, but it’s no, I just want to show you. Wow. I really love you and I’m really attracted to you.
Amanda: Well, and it’s who you want to be as a person.
Amanda: It’s you showing up as your best self in the marriage. I think both of us as coaches, that’s what we’re working on, is helping people show up as their best self in all areas of their life.
Amanda: Including the marriage and the bedroom.
Mike: Yep. Exactly. I did want to ask you this one cause I know you did a presentation that I watched on this. I think it would be helpful for my guys.
You shared some really good practical ways to get more connected with your wife. Things like texting her things like How is your day going, or holding her hand. But when it comes to actually getting in bed together and initiating sex with your wife, what would you recommend they do for that last step?
Amanda: Well, I think it’s helpful to start thinking about that in the morning, not as you’re getting into bed.
But I think one of the most helpful things that men can do is give women the space to connect back to themselves, to get out of mommy mode and connect back to themselves as a person so that they can move into that sexy wife mode. So, if a guy says, Hey, I’d really like to have sex tonight, how do you feel about that? And she thought, Well, I’ve had a rough day with the kids and I feel kind of touched out and stuff. Then he could say, Yeah, I can totally understand that. Would it help if you had 30 minutes to go take a bath or go for a walk or run or whatever you need to do, and I’ll take care of the kids and get them all settled and you can just take some time for yourself and then maybe we can be together and if you still don’t feel like sex at that point, maybe we can just watch a movie or snuggle or whatever.
Amanda: Like that’s going to go way better for you .
Mike: Nice. Awesome.
Amanda: I mean, it just kind of sets the stage like you actually care about her and what’s happening for her and the kind of day that she’s had and help her reconnect back to herself.
It’s not about taking care of your needs after she’s been taking care of everybody else’s, but it’s about wanting to spend some time with her in this way and connect with her in this way. How do you feel about that? What do you need in order to get there? Right? That’s showing her that she is seen and heard and loved.
Mike: Yeah. Killer. Okay guys, take that little last couple minutes and put that on repeat.
Amanda: There’s your script
Mike: That was awesome! Okay. Because that is being a man, right? It’s like here’s what I want, I want to connect with you in this way. And also I care about you being able to get the time that you need. And just because I want it doesn’t mean that you want it, right?
Amanda: Right, and you’re also willing, even if sex is not a possibility tonight, I still want to connect with you.
Amanda: Right. And I think we also have to understand how we define sex. Most people define sex as intercourse, penetration. Sex is so much more than that. You know, that can be a small part of it, of course, but we can actually have sex without penetration, people. So maybe defining what you actually want tonight is a good thing.
You know what, what sounds good to you. Sex studies show sex is better for both parties when it’s female focused. So if you’re like, Hey, if this sounds good to you, this is what I would like to do with you tonight. And when you make it about her and it’s not about like, I just need an orgasm. When it’s I need you, then that’s a lot more appealing too.
Mike: Yeah. Awesome. Great tips. Great coaching. I think people are going to come away with really good value today.
Now, for my guy listeners, if guys are like, Oh man, my wife needs to come talk to you because she needs to like sex the way you’re talking about… How would you recommend them bringing that up, and then where can they also find you?
Amanda: Well, I don’t recommend you saying, Hey, you need help with sex and so you need to go see this woman . That’s probably not the best way, but maybe say, I’ve been looking for more ways to help us in our sex life. And I know you’ve said that you don’t care if we ever have sex again and that feels really disheartening to me, and I think it could be better. I was listening to this podcast where it was this woman talking about what you’re saying is really common and some possible ways to fix it. Would you be willing to listen to this podcast with me? Would you be willing to maybe talk to her? If you’re not, okay. But I want you to know that this is an important part of our marriage. It’s not just about the sex, but it’s about connecting with you in a way that I can’t connect with anyone else. And so I would really love it if we could both work on making this better, and I’m gonna work on my end about how I can be a better man and a better husband, that you actually want to have sex with.
Mike: Right. And that’s what I do. That’s what I can help the guys with. So I love that. Another great script for you guys to kind of take away.
Amanda: Giving you all the scripts today, guys.
Mike: But again, expressing what’s important to you, right? And balancing that with what she wants and what’s important to her. That it’s not just about wanting to have sex, it’s wanting to have sex with her.
Amanda: And I think you’ve made that clear. I mean, you could go get a prostitute. That’s what I tell my clients too because a lot of women misinterpret their husbands. They think, well, he just wants sex all the time. And I tell them, No, he wants you. If he wanted sex, he could go hire someone off of any street corner for that. He actually wants you.
That’s the piece we have to work on with her mindset. Starting to change that script that she’s running in her head about what his intentions are. I think for the most part, the guy’s intentions are good. They do want to connect with their wife in this way. So helping them both to up their game a little bit and make it so that they can connect better, I think is really, really important.
Mike: So, let’s say that they used the script and, and their wife says that they will listen to the podcast, or they will contact you, where’s the best place to find you?
Amanda: Yeah, so my website is just www.amandalouder.com. You can find all the information there.
My podcast is Sex for Saints. You can find it on my website or any podcast app.
I do have a membership for women. I provide a lot of education, but also we do live coaching calls every single week. And then I do offer private coaching within the membership. So once you’re in the membership, then you can pay for private coaching on top of that and it’s a much reduced rate than what I would have charged when I was just doing one on one. So that’s really the best way.
And then I’m on Instagram.
I also hold retreats. My retreats are absolutely amazing if I do say so myself. Women walk away feeling completely different about themselves as a woman, about their sexuality and about sex in general.
At my last retreat, a woman said, I just came so lost and I’m going home found, and I think that was so beautiful.
I’ve got a retreat coming up February 1st through 5th in St. George, Utah. There’s still spots available.
Mike: Great. Awesome.
Amanda: And then I know my people are going to want to find you, so where can they find you?
Mike: Yeah, so I also have a podcast, Strong Men, Strong Marriages.
You can go to strongmenstrongmarriages.com. It’s my website. Those are the main places I am right now.
I have a program. It’s a 90 day program where guys reprogram their brain. That’s how I describe it. So you’re going to have daily accountability, daily coaching. You’re going to come in and really rework the way you’re thinking, feeling, and acting, so you can rebuild the trust. So your wife feels safe.
It’s kind of what we’re talking about today. So she feels heard and like Amanda’s been talking about. You get really good at communicating, understanding well, expressing yourself well, then getting to that intimacy, like asking for what you want, setting appropriate boundaries, bringing back that fun, flirting, and passion.
So we learn how to do all that through the program. You schedule a call, then you fill out an application, then we kind of talk about the application on the call. So yeah, Strong Men, Strong Marriages, podcast and strongmenstrongmarriages.com.
Amanda: Awesome, Mike. Yay. That sounds perfect.
Mike: All right, well this has been super fun. Hopefully, we will collaborate more in the future as well. I’ll sign off to my guys, so stay strong, men. We’ll see you next episode. I don’t know if you have a sign off for your folks ,
Amanda: I’ll just say thanks for listening, everyone, and we’ll see you next week.
Mike: All right, sounds good. Thanks a lot.