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Amanda:  Welcome back to the podcast everyone. I am excited to welcome back a returning guest who brought us so much value the first time around that I just had to have her back. Katie Runyon was with us on episode 256 where we talked about how to add role play into your sexual repertoire, and that episode has been one of your favorites. But here’s the thing. I didn’t want to just rehash what we talked about last time. Today we’re going to go deeper into how novelty and playfulness when combined with deep emotional intimacy can absolutely transform your marriage. 

So if you’ve ever wondered how to keep things exciting after years of marriage, or if you felt like you have to choose between emotional connection and physical passion, this conversation is going to open your eyes to a completely different way of thinking about intimacy in marriage.

So Katie, welcome back to the show. And for those of you who might not have heard episode 256, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you and your husband John came to start Faithful Fling? 

Katie:  Yes, my name is Katie and we are creators of Faithful Fling. I am happily married for over 25 years to my husband, John.

We have three kiddos and a bonus boy as well. He’s amazing. And also a grand baby, so that’s super fun. I love to find new donut shops around the area that I live in, Kansas City. 

Amanda: That’s awesome. 

Katie: And then to try to combat that, I play pickleball like three or four times a week. You would think I would get better, but I just like to do the same mistakes over and over. Super fun. A great way to connect and have friendships out there. 

But to answer your other question, John and I decided to create the thing that we wish existed when we first started exploring having role play dates together, and we just really wanted something that kind of did all the work for you so you could just get a scenario and already have your character created for you and then they give you ideas on how to implement this into your house or if you wanted to take it out. So we created Faithful Fling with the effort and with the intent to make it so much easier for couples all around the world because we recognized how fun and fabulous it was for our marriage by increasing our emotional intimacy, by adding this playfulness and novelty to it. It was super great. 

Amanda:  That’s awesome. So I know when we talked last time, Faithful Fling was fairly new, which you’ve developed new flings since then that have been so amazing. So I want to know, what has surprised you the most about couples and how they respond to role play? Like what myths have you seen busted.

Katie:  Okay, so we always will get like, oh, I bet only wives sign up for this. And just right when we think we see a trend, it’s absolutely a 50/50 split. So 50% of the husbands are the ones that sign up and then, you know, obviously the other 50 is the wife. So that has been really interesting that that myth has been busted for sure.

And then we are recognizing that playfulness is on the rise there. Couples are out there and they’re trying to find unique, creative ways to be playful together. Because let’s face it, a lot of times as you get adult, everything is so serious. And who better to be playful with than your spouse inside the bedroom? Crazy, great time. 

And then the other thing that’s been busted is people will be like, oh, they’ve only been married a couple years. They do not need this. They don’t need to have a role play date. And that’s also something that we’ve recognized. We have couples from just being, you know, newlyweds all the way up to 35 years of being married. 

And nobody needs it, Amanda, it’s not like a need. This is just like a great tool to implement to have a different date night. Again, different doesn’t mean better or worse. It’s just a great way to break free from monotonous date night routines while we’re keeping monogamy super hot. 

Amanda:  I love that. Okay, so maybe you better like walk through what one of these role play dates are and what you do and provide.

Katie:  Okay, so we are a little bit different than just looking up a role play date that you could find online. You know, just maybe like a naughty nurse or a French maid or something. One of those like cliche ones, which they’re cliche for a reason because they’re pretty fun. But one of the things that sets us apart from that is that we create these scenarios, we call them flings. So you’ll hear Amanda and I say that back and forth. A fling is just a role play date, and we write it a little bit and it sounds like a story at first. So you can kind of see how this might be able to go. And we give you character ideas and outfit ideas and links, dialogue suggestions. We offer ideas on how to take this fling out on the town or keep it at home.

We give you tons of tips and tricks on how to get into character, but the biggest difference is that you and your spouse are going to share one membership, but you have different usernames and passwords and this is going to help you keep your role play description to yourself and your spouse only get to see theirs.

And this helps you in two different ways. It allows you to adapt anything to your comfort level as well as implement these fun, sexy elements of surprise that you’re going to find are really unique and creative with Faithful Fling. So, you are not going to know exactly what’s going to happen. We in fact have an entire section on it and it says like exactly what your spouse knows about your roles, and then an entire section that says surprises that you can implement.

Because let’s face it, if we let you see everything, then you’re going to have these expectations and if you choose not to do something or say something, it might cause this like feeling of let down. And that’s the last thing we want to do for a role play day, right? We’re trying to elicit first state butterflies and have, add some connections and you know, a great time.

So that’s the whole point. And those sexy surprises are really, really fun and it helps you also break free from maybe the dynamic of your relationship is the husband is always the pursuer. I’m just using a general one. But having a role play date and the wife, she’s going to be the pursuer and she’s going to seduce her husband. That like, kind of flipping the script on that can be really, really fun for those types of dynamics. 

Amanda:  That is so fun. So Katie and I were at a business mastermind together a couple of months ago. Where she was describing what she does, and she took us through the first fling that everybody gets for free, right?

Katie: Yes. It’s called the Test Drive. 

Amanda: The test drive. Yes. Which I love. And so she walked us through like what that looks like from the husband’s view, from the wife’s view. It was so much fun. I walked away going, I wonder if I could actually get my husband to do this, who has not been let’s say ready or wanting to do role play.

So I think…they look so fun and you have so many different flings now that I just think, oh my gosh, there’s so much to choose from. It would be so fun. 

Katie:  Yeah. We have over 50 on our website, so it’s our idea of you, we have, you know, enough for. Interest that something’s going to stick out for you. So we have them categorized in different ways that you could easily decide which one might be right for you and your spouse. It’s great. We want you to collaborate together to choose the right one as well. 

Amanda:  I love that. So you’ve mentioned before that the best role play scenarios aren’t just about physical novelty, they’re about emotional connection.

Can you walk us through what that actually looks like in practice? 

Katie:  Sure. So again, we want you to like plan these together. I know we say you have different user names and passwords. Of course, there’s elements of these role play dates that you’re going to keep secret because it’s just a little bit more fun to reveal those on actual night of your fling.

But start treating it just like a date as you would any other time that you’re planning together and you talk about what sounds fun or what’s off limits and what you’re both curious about. And think of it kind of like as a flirty game plan, right? So would this turn you on? Um, what would make it even better?

And then the goal isn’t perfection here. It’s connection. So when you’re both feeling heard and respected, it’s so much easier to relax and enjoy the ride. So we love to say that for the test drive, just like relax, enjoy the ride. Borrow some confidence. It doesn’t have to be perfect. Just allow it to be fun. 

And remember all of this prep work that you’re doing is going to be building some sexual tension, which in a long-term committed relationship can sometimes be put on the back burner. Naturally that maybe just isn’t on the forefront of our mind because we’re just used to everything.

And that’s the beauty of a long-term committed relationship, of a marriage because yeah. We know exactly what you’re getting. You know exactly who they are and you can trust them and all of those things. It’s beautiful and powerful. But when you add in, like you stir in a little bit of mystery and intrigue, which a role play date will absolutely offer you, that’s when it can get like super crazy hot.

Amanda:  Well, and that’s what was happening in the beginning of your relationship, right? Where you’re starting to learn new things about each other. Now you’ve been married, you know, 20, 25 years, and you’re like, yeah, I know everything about them. But when you add in that mystery and that playfulness again, it takes you back to those early days where things were so fun, where you were building all of that emotional connection that took you to wanting to get married in the first place.

So I love that so much.

Okay. So there’s this idea that you can either have deep emotional intimacy or exciting novelty, but not both. So how do you help couples see that these actually fuel each other? 

Katie:  Okay, so I love that question. It’s awesome. I just want you to like think about it like, all right, I’ve decided I’m going to have a role play date with my spouse.

Like your willingness to even do that is super powerful because you’re like, you’re telling them, Hey, I prioritize our marriage because I am willing to be intentional with my time, energy, and effort, and maybe even some finances to create a new experience with you. And then it tells your spouse that you trust them because you’re willing to be vulnerable with them to try something you’ve never done before, like, and then that builds greater emotional intimacy, like trust and friendship and communication and connection.

And then you throw in those elements like we’ve talked about, which is playfulness and novelty and fantasy. And that’s when it really stays hot. So just even your willingness to do this. So saying yes to this role play date also invites you to tap into your erotic mind, and that’s that place deep inside of us where creativity, desire and curiosity lies. It’s that place where we can get excited about an upcoming sexual engagement and it’s just really, really fun to be able to tap into that. But here’s the difference, Amanda, you tap into that with yourself. You do this for you, and then you’re inviting your spouse to tap into their erotic mind, and then you blend them together and you can come up with some powerful, crazy, fun, fun, super connecting scenarios and stories and have a really great time together, and that is our hope and desire for our subscribers all around the world is just to have a different way to build some connection and a really great time doing it. 

Amanda:  You talked about blending those erotic minds, and that is something I want to talk to you about again in a minute.

But first I want to talk to you about what happens when couples don’t have that foundational emotional intimacy, and they try to add in that novelty. What goes wrong. 

Katie:  Okay. A lot can go wrong and, and it doesn’t also have to go wrong. My first experience with a role play date with my husband is…we were definitely just in a roommate syndrome for sure. I gave him my leftovers and I got his leftovers as well. And I decided just to be kind of fun and flirty one night, and go ahead, off of a silly comment he made. And create like a, I dressed up in this cute little costume and I really was vulnerable and put myself out there.  And, it was crazy connecting. And that’s what was the catalyst for us to want to look at each other the same way. Like, Hey, I remember you. I married you. Like, let’s get back to that place again. So we were being more intentional with our time, energy, and effort. But, if you don’t have that emotional intimacy and you’re trying to add it in. Like, I think our case may have just been, we were lucky, but it’s really hard to be vulnerable and you might feel a little bit… like vulnerable, can make you feel contempt sometimes. And like resentment, like, why am I even doing this? He or she just maybe wants something from me.

But if you have that security and safety behind these higher levels of emotional intimacy, I think it’s going to be a lot better. I always suggest working on these, the emotional intimacy first before we’re talking about fantasy and novelty and things like that. 

Amanda:  Yeah, I totally agree with that.

I was in a Facebook group a couple weeks ago and I read a post. This guy was posting anonymously saying like, how much he needs novelty in his relationship. Like this is what I need in order to be happy in my relationship. And his wife was not putting in the effort that he thought she should. And was actually quite resistant to it. And he was, every time someone would say like, well, you need to build that emotional foundation, that emotional intimacy first, not just say like, you need to keep things like new and exciting for me in order for me to be happy. And he just kept pushing back on everything. Well, I meet her needs in every other way. She should meet mine. And he wanted no recognition of the emotional intimacy that needed to be built first before we built that novelty and fun and playfulness in the relationship. 

So I totally see how when you don’t have that safety and security, it can really cause such huge problems in the relationship and neither one’s going to be getting what they want.

Katie:  No, not at all, because she’s probably not feeling super safe. Like whatever I do isn’t quite, whatever is inside your head, it’s not enough. It’s never going to be enough. And then like when you feel that way, your desire to try to fulfill anything is gone. Like why even put in the effort, it’s never going to be enough, right?

So it’s a vicious cycle, but I don’t really think you’re ever going to regret putting in intentional effort to create higher emotional intimacy with your spouse. And all of those things are just going to, I mean, you’re going to get along so much better. Your sex life is going to be so much more connecting, and that’s what everybody is after.

It’s just this connection and building something new within yourselves. Even if you’ve been married 20 years, if you’ve had problems before, just continuing to develop that is going to be very important in your longevity of your happiness in your marriage. 

Amanda:  So you talked about how you and your husband were kind of in that roommate situation. Right? So for couples who’ve been married, you know, 15, 20 plus years, how do you help them rediscover that sense of getting to know each other that creates the novelty, but also the deeper intimacy. 

Katie:  So playfulness introduces curiosity, creativity, and freedom, and it takes you out of your daily roles. So maybe you’re always in mom mode or boss mode, or whatever else you’re doing, and this is going to just help you put that aside for a little bit, reconnect with your spouse in this way that maybe you haven’t for a while, and just recognizing the power that can come from being playful with each other. 

Because again, playfulness as adults, it kind of evaporates as you get older. Right? And why not want to increase that with your spouse, whether you’ve been married for two months or like you mentioned, 15 to 20 years? Because when we were in this roommate syndrome for sure it was even hard to look at him like we could have fun together again. 

Like I know that sounds, I mean, and we are fabulous now, but it wasn’t really great. I mean, I’m being very, very honest here. It wasn’t, and then I recognize that it wasn’t that one role play date that changed everything for us, but it is a memory for us that we looked at each other like, wow, you can still surprise me and you it just made us think of each other more often, and it was fabulous. I’m super grateful for a silly comment that was made and me not getting angry about it. I got curious instead. And then we were able to move forward and build something and who would’ve thought that silly comment would have created an entire website where we help thousands of couples all around the world have a really great date night occasionally. Once a month. Once a quarter. Two times a year, whatever it looks like. 

Amanda:  That’s awesome. Don’t you think that you get into that roommate syndrome because you think you know everything about your spouse? Like we’ve been married for 20 plus years. I know everything there is to know about them, but I love what you said, how when you introduce this role play, you’re maybe like bringing out things that you don’t actually know about your spouse.

Katie:  Yes. So one of our taglines is like, who will you be tonight? Like, kind of like, who’s going to be your new role? And, John, my husband, is always like, you know, that’s exciting for me, but I’m always like, who are you going to be tonight? Like, what is some new fun thing I’m going to learn about you tonight? So I do think that it really provides an atmosphere to learn more about yourself as well as your spouse.

Amanda:  Yeah. I love that. I think a lot of people think that role play is about pretending to be someone else entirely. But you teach something different. So can you explain how the best scenarios actually help couples explore that hidden part of themselves? We kind of just touched on it, but I would love to talk about that a little bit more.

Katie:  Yeah. So I think we’re talking about our erotic minds, right? Where we’re just kind of like that place where, and if you think to yourself like, I do not have an erotic mind, I do not have any fantasies. Hey, I totally get that for you. But maybe think of it more as like what turns me on, what am I curious about? What is something that I would be entertained to even, you know, think about having this type of scenario with, but this plays deep inside of us, which we all have, and it’s really hard to tap into if you, um, I know Amanda does a ton of work on this, so listening to her should be helping you feel free to tap into this erotic.

And again, it’s that place deep inside of us where creativity, desire, and curiosity lay. But, what would be a suggestion that you would, besides asking those few questions, what would you ask some of your listeners and how they might want to do that as well? Because you had a really good episode on it not too long ago.

Amanda:  Yeah. I mean, when we talk about like a lot of people just don’t even think that they have fantasies or because we’ve shut it down for so long, right? That conditioning, like we have to be pure in our thoughts and so they just shut it all down. But it is part of us. And so I love to have people like think back when you were a kid or a teenager and you like maybe read a book or you watched a movie or saw a TV show and you were like, oh, that like, and then you were like, Nope, gotta shut that down, right? Like. What was that? What was it that stirred those feelings that you then shut down? And thinking about like what that is for yourself can really start to help you go, oh, that is something that turns me on. That is something that I found exciting at one point. What else could be there? Right? And start remembering. 

Katie:  And again, I think you, I mentioned it and you just hit on that again, sometimes the word erotic mind or fantasy feels so far out there and you’re like, I couldn’t possibly have that. But like, breaking it down, like you just said, like looking back to think about when did I start suppressing this or like asking ourselves those simple questions really can kind of help you recognize like, Hey, you’re right there. You just don’t even, you’re in there. Welcome. It’s not a scary place. It’s actually really free and fun and it can be wildly, wildly entertaining. 

Amanda:  Yes. Well, and I think what people struggle with is that it actually is God given, like, God created our brains to work this way. Like, we need to be thinking about these things in order to get turned on 

Katie:  And learning your desire response is pretty powerful as well. But just knowing it’s God-given and it’s okay to step in there and sit in there and learn more about yourself is really great. 

Amanda:  Yes. Okay. So can you give us an example of how two very different erotic minds can actually create something amazing together?

Katie:  Okay, so I know we talked about it a little bit earlier, but think about, let’s go with one scenario. I’m just going to use me and my husband and I had this grand idea. I’m like, Hey, I really want to go to a hotel lounge and I want to go in by myself and I want to sit down and have a sparkling cider, and I want you to come in like 10 minutes later and hit on me because you just saw me and it made me feel super attractive.

And he might be like, I love that idea. I don’t want to go to a hotel. I want to do this, but I can’t do this outside, that’s a little too much for me. So then you’re collaborating together on what this could look like. You’re like, okay, I still want to feel that way. What happens if I kind of turned our bedroom into maybe a lounge setting? Like I put a chair in there from the living room, I removed all the picture frames. It’s creating a scene to help it feel a little bit different. And I’m stepping into a different character and my husband’s like, yeah, I could totally do that. Right? 

Amanda: Yeah.

Katie:  On the flip side. Katie, I think it would be so hot if you went to a hotel lounge and you only had a trench coat on and nothing else. And I would be like, oh, thanks for sharing that. Absolutely not going to happen. Right? Like I’m just saying. And then I would say, I will go to a hotel lounge, but I’m going to have something on underneath there that you’ve never seen before.

So it’s kind of still this sexy element, like what is she wearing? But we’re coming together with some of our boundaries and we’re collaborating together. I love to see what that could look like, because we often, it’s totally and absolutely normal and common for one spouse to be more excited and more playful than the other.

Absolutely normal. I know that sometime maybe you’ve even mentioned that before. But the power is just giving it a try anyways. If you can both get there. If you both can get there, great. And if you can’t, that’s okay too. You can explore it in different ways too. 

Amanda:  Yeah. Have you seen that episode of Modern Family? With Phil and Claire, and she has the trench coat on and it gets caught in the escalator. 

Katie:  That’s exactly, we figured there would be so many people that have seen that. Exactly. I can’t even remember what their like alter ego, different names that they had for each other, but it was so funny.

Amanda: Well, when they run into her dad and stepmom. Oh, and like the trench coats coming off. Oh, it’s. So funny! If you have not seen that, then you can YouTube it and just like the Claire and Phil Modern Family trench coat, and you will find it and you will laugh so hard. 

Katie:  The best part was at the end when like the stepmom, like winks at her was like, I’ve been here before. You’re like, oh, oh, see, everybody’s doing it! 

Amanda: So great. It’s so, so great. Okay, so walk us through the process, how you take two individuals and help them co-create something that turns them both on, because there’s some really intricate details that you’ve put in. I mean, you talked a little bit about how they have their own usernames and passwords. And they can customize things, but like one of the things that you shared that I loved is that you can even change the names. 

Katie: We do have that. 

Amanda: Which is so important. 

Katie: A name is crazy powerful, Amanda. You’re exactly right. So we recognize that and then when you’re looking at your role play scenario, you’re like, Hey, this name is maybe my husband’s ex and I do not want that. So you can just hop in there, change your name. A lot of people will just put their own names in it. We do this a lot. So we also tell you in your role play description, like who’s making the first initial contact so that the planning is pretty seamless.

We give you templates on that from either text invitation or email. But another way to make you a little bit more comfortable is the not knowing, and then you can adapt, like not knowing your spouse’s role. And then they don’t know yours. So you’re able to take things out that maybe you didn’t really want to do.

And nothing is wild. It’s not like completely crazy kinky or anything at all. I do think we’re all a little kinky than we give ourselves credit for, but I would say that and then we have a spice it up section, Amanda, and this is not using explicit language or images, but our suggestions are pretty saucy, so yeah, that’s good to add somehow.

Amanda: But you’re, what I  love and appreciate about it is you’re all keeping it within like the two of you, right? 

Katie: Oh, for sure. 

Amanda: You’re not like bringing in a third person or something like that. It’s just between the two of you and making things really hot between. 

Katie:  Yeah, that’s our tagline. We’re like, we’re keeping monogamy hot. Like that’s it. And then we do offer something else, Amanda, if a role play date and you’re just not quite there, but you really like the idea of getting a date that tells you exactly some things that you could do. And these like sexy surprises you could implement for your husband or your wife, but you’re really not quite sure about a role play date. We have something called fringe dates, so you’re feeling a little sexy and sassy all on your own. You’re acting as yourself. So I am Katie and John is John, but we definitely help you along. All inclusive. I mean, each of our roleplay, just date descriptions are probably like 10 to 15.pages long. We tell you what you need to know and then we tell you what we told you, and then we tell you again. So you kind of make sure that you really know what your expectations are and your delivery for mystery and intrigue. So that’s another thing that we offer just to help people feel a little bit more comfortable.

Like maybe the role play date’s not quite for you, but you really like the idea of the setup and the delivery of it, but you want to try to act like yourself. Some other couples will have a role play date, but if it gets to a point where it becomes a little bit more sexual in nature as the date moves on, they just like mentally kind of slip into their own minds.

I’ll get emails from people, we call it fling feedback, and they’ll be like, that was the best night of my entire life. Thank you so much. Like I would’ve never thought that a silly role play, actually, it was an awkward role play date would be so emotionally connecting.

And I was like, that one actually made me a little emotional. I’m so glad too.

Amanda:  I love that. So I think that’s a really great way as we wrap up, what is the most transformative thing you have seen happen when couples really embrace this approach to their intimate life together? 

Katie:  And this might surprise you a little bit, but it’s the intentionality. Being intentional with your time, your effort, your attention. Because often we’re not feeling seen, but if someone’s willing to put in extra effort to create something together, that intention can feel really, really healing in a relationship where maybe you’re not feeling seen. And that’s been really, really awesome.

Amanda: Oh,  I love that so much. Okay. This has been so great. I want you to tell everybody where they can find you and what you’ve got going on and in store for them when they do. 

Katie:  Okay. Thank you so much. So you can find me on Instagram @faithfling and then our website. So it’s just faithfulfling.com. Our first role play is free. It’s called a test drive. 

I cannot wait for you guys to try it out and just send me a little fling feedback. Let me know what you think. 

Amanda:  Well, and you’ve got some different subscription plans too, right? 

Katie:  Absolutely. So you can just purchase one or we do it like fling tokens so you can decide how many you think you might want in a year. They never expire. You’ll always have your flings even after maybe you’ve canceled, they’re still available to you. But I would say the most common one is six flings per year.

Amanda: So, you know, doing one every other month is totally doable. Totally doable. Yeah. 

Katie:  And again, it’s just that intention. 

Amanda:  That’s awesome. Well, we’re going to put the link in the show notes. 

But thank you Katie, for coming on again. It was so great to spend some time with you. 

Katie:  Thank you, Amanda. It’s always a great time. 

Amanda:  All right, everyone. Thanks so much for joining me today for this interview with Katie Runyon and Faithful Fling. I hope you will take her up on the test drive and have a great week.

We’ll see you next time. Remember, love is a journey, not a destination. Stay committed, stay passionate, and stay connected. Bye-bye.